Talk:Brandy

Discussion header
Removed Spanish portal entry as I cannot see any references to spain in the document. --90.210.5.54 (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone deleted my entire musical history of Brandy. "Brandy" should have her own entry under "Brandy", not "Brandy Norwood", because her official performing name is just "Brandy".

Can someone please address Brandy the entertainer at the top of this page. It was once there and now is gone. It should be there. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylemmenard (talk • contribs) 03:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's under Brandy (singer), but Brandy Norwood needs to be merged. --- Zoe

Which one has a more distinct taste?

"Napoleon" as a classification of Cognac is mentioned but not defined. Whatsit mean? What's "Napoleon Brandy"? Inbibing minds want to know. KarlBunker 14:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "Napoleon Brandy" is a brand of French brandy from Alsace! It isn't a Cognac! However, I think this French brandy is only available in Europe and in my opinion its quality is quite poor, compared to Cognac or Armagnac. That "Napoleon" as a classification of Cognac isn't defined means: A "Napoleon Cognac" can be a Cognac where the youngest brandy is stored 6 1/2 years + 1 day in cask - or very much longer! It depends in fact on the traditions of the respective brand. 86.56.0.159 00:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The "VS" ranking here conflicts with the "VS" ranking for Cognac. Which one is correct?

Complicated structures are not neutral
The structure of brandy article reversed 17.3.2011 was simple. Actual structure is dogmatic.(81.9.163.152 (talk) 10:07, 18 March 2011 (UTC)).

Napoleon and Cognac
Once upon a time every Cognac producers used to call “Napoleon” his best brandy. Napoleon meant them de best brandy produced. This usage disappeared as a consequence of commercial abuse in labelling. Nowadays Cognac producers do not call Napoleon his best product. It can still be used in contexts like this: “She gave us a nice brandy, but really it was not “la fine Napoleon”. (González del Valle (talk) 03:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)).

Grape brandy, fruit brandy, and pomace brandy
It is not adequate to divide brandies into grape brandies, fruit brandies and pomace brandies. For producing “grape pomace brandy” it is necessary the presence in the alembic of at least some of those peels or skins called “orujo” in Spanish and in Italian “grappa”. There is not, as was edited here, with the support of the British Encyclopaedia, such a thing as “pomace wine”. The wine distilled for producing “pomace brandy” is just ordinary wine, but with grape peels. Wine is liquid and pomace is solid. Wine requires being liquid. If it is not liquid, it is not wine. The idea of pomace wines —I have never heard of them— is inconsistent.

It is difficult to distinguish between “fruit brandy” and “pomace brandy” in cases other than grape. It can be done significativelly with perry and sider. In what Germans call “wasser” as counterpoised to “geist”, the distillate generally comes from something that is a kind of baby food, that dubiously can be called wine. They do not produce wine and with the leftovers another drink: pomace brandy.

I propose to divide “ brandy” into two voices: “brandy” and “marc”. Brandy woul be dedicated exclusively to grape brandy. After some generalities, the subdivision would be based on countries: France, Spain, Italy, US, etc. France has brandies as important as Armagnac, Cognac and others. Greece has very special brandies, different from the rest, because they are sweetened. Etc.

I prefer “marc” rather than “pomace brandy”, because this expression is much more used and understandable. After that, “pomace brandy” is a compound word. The word “pomace” does not appear in a lot of ordinary English dictionaries. “Marc” should be subdivided the same way. I enjoy collaborating with wikipedia. Sometimes collaborating includes being called vandalic. I do not like that word applied to my collaborations, even if they impertinent. The never are vandalic. They are constructive. Please use another term.González del Valle (talk) 10:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * First of all, I agree that there is no such thing as "pomace wine." I'm going to remove the article's single reference to it.


 * As for dividing the article — although "marc" is included in English dictionaries, very, very few English-speakers know the word in either of its TWO meanings:


 * [1] the refuse of grapes or other fruit that has been pressed for winemaking.
 * [2] an alcoholic spirit distilled from this.


 * See NOAD, 3rd edition, at page 1068.


 * If your proposal were ever implemented, it would introduce a great deal of obscurity and confusion.


 * The article's current organization into grape brandy, fruit brandy, and pomace brandy works just fine. Wahrmund (talk) 22:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, I would like to point out that the article never actually included the quoted phrase "pomace wine" (although it did have an unfortunate phrasing that could encourage the notion that such a thing might exist). —BarrelProof (talk) 23:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

On “marc”, “pomace brandy” and using not English words
There are two concepts implied in these two expressions: “pomace brandy” and “marc”. Italians have two words for the two concepts. They call “grappa” the alcoholic beverage, and “vinaccia” the raw material it is made from. In French “marc” means both things: the peel of the grape and metonymically the beverage. “Pomace” in my opinion means “vinaccia”, ie. the raw material. In English you speak or write about “grape pomace” if the by-product is not fermented and of “winery pomace” if is it already fermented. It would be nonsense, in my opinion, to change into “grape marc” and “winery marc”. Instead it is necessary to speak about “marc” as a beverage, not only because is not a compound word, but also for being more precise. The definition would be: Marc is an alcoholic beverage done with pomace, present during distillation.

When somebody writes about “marc” or “cachaça” or “cachaza”  or “grappa” the reliable source for checking  the exact meaning  given to those words  is not the  British Encyclopaedia or the Oxford dictionary, but a French-French dictionary in the first case; a Portuguese-Portuguese dictionary in the second  case and a Spanish-Spanish;  dictionary in the third case and Italian-Italian dictionary in the forth case. Usually it is ridiculous, to quote a particular one.

A French-English dictionaries or Italian-English, etc. are not reliable. V. gr. The Oxford dictionary says that “pomum” means “malum” ad vocem “pomace”. It does not mean that. The reliable dictionary is a Latin-Latin dictionary.(González del Valle (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)).

Image request

 * Can somebody add an image to this article to show what brandy itself actually looks like, in a brandy glass Yeanold Viskersenn 15:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sweetness
Does brandy's sweetness come from the presence of any residual sugars, or are there other flavor elements that make it seem sweeter than whisky or other similar spirits? 69.81.154.24 07:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Value of old Brandy
Is there anybody out there that could help me to determine the value of two bottles of unopened brandy that I have. They are Metaxa Greek Brandy, bottled in 1915. Any help would be appreciated.

Grape brandy
The sentence "However, heating brandy may cause the alcohol vapor to become too strong, so that the aromas are overpowered." has a Citation Needed label. Now, anybody can test for themselves that heating brandy makes the alcohol vapor too strong, but when the brandy has cooled to the temperature of a warm hand (or, of course, back to room temperature), the aroma is more round and pleasant.

I wrote the above because I absolytely hate(!!) things like "The sky is blue.[citation needed]", and I thought anonymously removing the tag and adding the explanation would only be undone without actually thinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.44.215 (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Fruit brandy
There is apparently some disagreement to the first paragraph of the fruit brandy section. Here is what I removed from the article:


 * this paragraph is totaly wrong, we need a specialist to rewrite it. This is not clear what Fruit Brandy is but Palinka and slivovica are definitively not, they are just normal spirits made from fruits. And you don't drink them chilled or iced. Same for calvados.
 * A generally accepted definition of the term Fruit Brandy is very difficult. For inctance in the US Kirschwasser is considered to be a Fruit Brandy but in Germany it's considered to be a variety of traditional German schnapps, and traditional schnapps isn't brandy, it's just a type of normal spirits. The same is true for many other so called Fruit Brandies, in very most English speaking countries they are called Fruit Brandies, but in their respective countries of origin they are condidered to be normal spirits. 86.56.0.159 00:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Hungar term palinka from Slovak palenka means generally distillate or spirit (drink prepared by destilation). Palenka is from palit (to burn as folk term meaning to distill) Slivovica means spirit prepared from plum. Suffix -ovica in slovak language. Appricot is marhula. Marhul-ovica is spirit from appricot etc.
 * May be it is just language problem. According EU definition, only wine brandy is brandy. The term "fruit brandy" is similar as "fruite wine". Fruite wine is not wine and fruite brandy is not brandy. It is just exerted term, but not legislatively correct.
 * And you don't drink them chilled or iced. Same for calvados. It is not important for definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.5.210.202 (talk) 12:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Additionally the statement about proof needs clarification - even though it has a link to the proof article. American proof is 1:2 for ABV and EU proof or British proof is 4:7 ABV. This is not an American encyclopaedia!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geejayoh (talk • contribs) 03:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

How do you like this passage?
See this passage from the article:
 * Jeżynówka (yedga-noov-ka) is a Polish Blackberry Brandy. It is often toasted with the saying "Na zdrowie" or for non-fluent Pollocks "To health" however it is just a way to say "Cheers".

Cultural image of brandy drinkers?
Like most alcoholic beverages, brandy can the drinker as being a certain type of person. I couldn't find any information outside of vague college anecdotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.202.27.131 (talk) 04:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Distillation section
The distillation section had an unclear tag, so I rewrote it and removed the tag. This is clearer, at least to me, but changes are welcome.ThisIsMyIngenpediaName (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Proof using a gun powder grain occurs at 57.15% ABV. Gunpowder will just ignite and fizzle when soaked with proof alcohol, but will not explode. Above proof spirits a much higher rate of tax in the UK. The gun powder test was used until 1816.61.68.71.253 (talk) 11:05, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

History section
See this passage from the Internet about the history of brandy in China. :

Readers will be doubly surprised to learn that the Chinese invented brandy, because though the fact in itself is impressive enough, it is not widely realized that the Chinese drank wine made from grapes at all, much less distilled it into brandy. Grape wine was being drunk by the second century BC at the latest in China, since we begin to have textual evidence of it by then. The envoy and traveller Chang Ch'ien brought good wine grapes (Vitis vinifera) back with him from Bactria about 126 BC. Before the importation of those grapes, however, there were wild vine species, or 'mountain grapes', which were already being used for wine, namely Vitis thunbergii and Vitas filifolia. Wine made from them is mentioned before Chang Ch'ien in the book called Classical Pharmacopoeia of the Heavenly Husbandman. The fact that an even stronger drink could be obtained from wine first came to attention through the production of `frozen-out wine' among the Central Asian tribes.It was presumably this to which. Chang Hua was referring in 290 AD in his book Records of the Investigation of Things, when he said: `The Western regions have a wine made from grapes which will keep good for years, as much as ten years, it is commonly said; and if one drinks of it, one will not get over one's drunkenness for days. The tribal peoples of Kao-Ch'ang (Turfan) presented `frozen-out wine' as tribute to Chinese emperors more than once, commencing in 520 AD. Distilled wine, or brandy, was known in China as `burnt wine'. The English word `brandy' itself comes from the Dutch brandewijn (`burnt wine'). And the German word for brandy or spirits is Branntwein (`burnt wine'), while a distiller is a Branntweinbrenner (`burnt wine burner'). It is possible that all of these words result from a direct translation of the Chinese shao chiu (`burnt wine') by Dutch sailors. If not, they are a curious coincidence indeed. http://www.eykhoff.nl/Wine%20in%20China.pdf --Wine is slime (talk) 22:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fernand Braudel's Structures of Everyday Life Chapter 3 Food and Drink states Chinese wines were made from millet or rice and were often flavored with fruits. Chinese grape wine was a grape flavored beer. The Persians and Chinese were distilling Camphor by the 9th century but whether they were making distilled brandy before the 11th (when it was made in Europe) is unknown. It was medicinal until the near the end of the 15th century. In 1514 the guild of vinegar makers were given the privilege of distilling in France by Louis XII. Braudel makes a convincing case for the spread of brandy as a popular drink belonging to the 16th and not the 15th century. Nitpyck (talk) 19:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

About brandy and burning
The Diccionario de la Real Academia Española (I used ed. 1970) defines “vino de quema” this way: “vino de quema  (wine for burning) is the one destined to distillation for it has not conditions for being drunk”. Once it was distilled —quemado— it was shipped to Holland, a small part of the Netherlands and the name used in Spain to designate the whole country. The Spanish word “holandas” (Vid. The same dictionary), means the result of burning wine in pot stills, while is still transparent and did no get the brown colour of oxidation. The name comes from the destination of this “vino quemado”: Holland. English people liked this product, but they preferred old brandy more than young brandy. The wines of Charente area are “vinos de quema”. They are too acid for being used as table wine. The old brandy —vino quemado— from Cognac is worldwide appreciated. (González del Valle (talk) 05:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)). — Preceding unsigned comment added by González del Valle (talk • contribs) 05:05, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Apple Jack
I am unaware of any commercial Apple Jack produced by freeze distillation. Nitpyck (talk) 16:15, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Medicinal use?
I have come across in literature (mostly fiction, largely the Sherlock Holmes series) many references to brandy being used in some medicinal capacity. Is there any truth to this and it has just been omitted, or is this complete and utter falsehood? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mewtroid (talk • contribs) 00:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe that distilled spirits were used in the medicinal sense when they first became common sometime in the middle ages and the habit of using them that way stuck. I've noticed the use in literature and television as well. Spirits seem to be seen as being fortifying for someone who has just received a shock (mental or physical). It depresses the central nervous system, doesn't it? Maybe it helps with tremors. MultK (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Slivovitz
Are the four separate entries for various slivovitz spellings in the list of fruit brandies really necessary?--89.216.166.56 (talk) 14:10, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

'Napoleon' Brandy
Napoleon brandy is not defined.

The only reference is: X.O.: "Extra Old", Napoleon or Vieille Reserve, aged at least six years, Napoleon at least four years. (Frankly, that doesn't event make much sense. If Napoleon brandy belongs in the set of (X.O.), then it should be aged at least six years, not at least four years. Or is there some special quality to it (fermentation process, region of origin, type of grape, etc) that makes it fit in with Extra Old and Vieille Reserve brandies?)

I think it would be useful if somebody with more understanding expanded this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilde27 (talk • contribs) 14:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Orujo
Is that the right word? Ive got a bottle and its labeled: Aguardiente de orujo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.13.127.97 (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I found it! "Orujo" is the pomace and the pomace brandy is "aguardiente de orujo"

One article about two things
I think this article should be split since it covers two different things - brandy (wine brandy) and fruit/pomace brandy. I agree their names are similar and production technology is somewhat similar, but still they are two (or three) different things: Brandy, Fruit brandy and Pomace brandy (the latter two may or may not be presented together). They could be developed into great articles but not as it is now. Any thoughts?--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:32, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

After a further investigation - there already is an article on Pomace brandy. Therefore the section in this article should definitely be moved there and wikilinked from this article through a See also template and section. Ditto for Fruit brandy.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This article could still keep a summary of the pomace brandy and fruit brandy articles with a "main article" referral at the tops of the sections. How wine brandy differs from other brandies is certainly relevant to this article, and these sections could contain a brief summary of the difference. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 16:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Brandy, as generally used (especially if not jurisdiction-specific), is a broad term. Since there are multiple (actually, more than two) types of "brandy", although it may be a good thing to have separate articles on specific types of brandy, I don't think it is justifiable to make a wholesale removal of all mentions of types of brandy other than grape brandy from this article. Even in the EU there is also "grain brandy", and this article is not just about the EU. If you want an article that is exclusively about grape brandy, that's fine - please create a separate article called "grape brandy".  Note also that some editors also seem to be assuming that all "wine" is made from grapes, which is obviously not true.  See the wine article. Its initial paragraph says that wine is usually made from grapes, but there is certainly such a thing referred to as some type of wine that is not made from grapes. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Suppression of “pot still”, “fruit brandy” and “pomace brandies” issues
“Pot still vs. tower still” is an issue common to whiskey, tequila, rum, etc. It should be treated in general. It corresponds to the entry “Alembic”.

Grape brandy has sufficient issues by itself. They have not to be mixed with other issues such as “fruit brandies” that deserve a particular entry. Grape pomace brandy deserves also an entry. Instead other pomace brandies should be only an appendix of grape pomace brandy. They have very little content.

It is bad to accumulate too many issues under the entry “brandy”. “Aging”, although is a problem common to other alcoholic beverages, such as whisky, rum etc, presents particular problems in the case of grape brandy and ought to be included.(González del Valle (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)).

Brandy and wine summaries or synopsis
When dealing with “Wine” English Ingenpedia does not deal with cherry wine, blackberry wine, vegetable wines, etc. The synopsis of “wine” is limited to the first meaning of The Concise Oxford Dictionary: “fermented grape-juice”. (Cfr. fifth edition, Oxford University Pres, 1964).

This same dictionary as first meaning of brandy defines: “Strong spirit distilled from wine”. I do not understand why when dealing with “Brandy” the synopsis has to deal with cherry brandy, blackberry brandy, vegetable brandy, etc. Not only with that. Also with cherry pomace brandy, blackberry pomace brandy, etc.

Present article says: “According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica and general colloquial usage of the term, brandy may also be made from pomace and from fermented fruit other than grapes”. Is an irremovable dogma that Ingenpedia “Brandy” has to deal with such a lot of secondary meanings in the same article?

For the rest, I do no want to analyse in depth the errors and lack of legal knowledge present in the legal considerations of present article. (González del Valle (talk) 16:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)).


 * Brandy as any fruit spirit is an American approach. The EU recognises only aged (grape) wine distillates as brandy, while an unaged wine distillate may only be "wine spirit" (or a PDO of that), and a distillate of whole grape mash (as opposed to finished wine), whether aged or not, may only be "fruit/grape spirit" (or a PDO of that), with the exception of some fruit liqueurs (prune brandy, orange brandy, apricot brandy, and cherry brandy) which are technically unrelated to brandy, and even may be prepared from rectified spirit, but may not be labeled simply as "brandy". (see regulations).


 * In the U.S., however, brandy is any spirit distilled "from the fermented juice, mash, or wine of fruit, or from the residue thereof [...]" (see regulations). It's a cultural difference that should be dealt with. – Phoney (talk) 20:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * But let us keep articles about topics, not about titles. Under this title, I'd expect to find an article only about the spirit from distilled wine, with a hatnote like about, pointing to e.g. distilled beverage, to conform to American usage. The #Types section is confusing, and should either be moved into List of fruit spirits or, better still, to List of alcoholic beverages or its subarticle. Now we have apples and oranges. No such user (talk) 07:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Update: just now I saw it has been discussed above in, back in 2011. I think I'll be bold when I find some time and split the article accordingly, with appropriate hatnotes and wikilinks. No such user (talk) 09:05, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Support – Traditional brandy (aged grape wine spirit) is different from fruit/pomace spirits in several aspects, so I consider it most confusing to mix them up in one article.Fruit brandy (now a redirect page) or fruit spirit should deal with those (pomace brandy already exists), and other than their names, these should not be mentioned as a kind of brandy. – Phoney (talk) 10:25, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Article rescoped
After a lot of confusion over the terminology and scope (which included Ingenpedia:Articles for deletion/Rakia), I clearly delineated articles Brandy, Fruit brandy and Pomace brandy, and created a category:Fruit brandies. While the real-world terminology is still rather confusing, I hope that at least Ingenpedia coverage of this broad and fuzzy topic (variety of names for a variety of similar beverages across the globe) is a bit more straightforward now. Cheers! No such user (talk) 15:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Great work. Much better organization. Thanks for the excellent effort! oknazevad (talk) 13:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Care to explain ? That material, though unsourced, certainly belongs to grappa article rather than here, where it's an unnecessary tangent. No such user (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Since grappa is unflavored, and also a grape spirit (albeit unaged), a brief mention doesn't seem completely out of scope when discussing Italian brandies. That it has a separate article that is linked doesn't strike me as a reason to remove it completely anymore than removing any of the other named varieties would make sense. Plus there's still a mention of it in the following sentence, so it's part of the overall picture that, in my view, should stay as the brief mention it is. oknazevad (talk) 22:20, 15 April 2016 (UTC)


 * But it isn't exactly brief – more than half of that paragraph (which is only supposed to enumerate significant brandy-producing regions) is now devoted to grappa. Plus, grappa is already explained and linked in the article, and contains most of the facts from that paragraph, so the addition stands out as a digression. No such user (talk) 11:42, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Unreferenced used of "Cognac"
Wikimedia received an email from Bureau National Interprofessionnel du Cognac via OTRS ticket:2016060110015049 regarding the use of the term "Cognac" When describing something other than the wine spirit produced in "the Cognac delimited area, in France, under strict rules of production and with a unique know-how".

I pointed out that this article covers the history of brandy, including time periods when the term was used prior to the legal limitations on the usage.

However, are usages are not supported by reference. I see a general template was added in 2014 looking for additional citations, but that hasn't resulted in citations for the specific use of cognac in many cases. I will add some more specific request for citations. Please note that the knowledgeable people writing to us have suggested that our history is inaccurate, so the goal is not simply defined some citations but to examine them carefully and correct the article wherever necessary. Ideally, corrections and citations will be added soon. If not, per the general rule that challenge material without supporting citations can be removed I plan to remove the unsupported claims.

Interested editors might wish to consult Cognac encyclopedia.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  12:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Which are the exact passages they have issue with? Because i believe that this article, which is about all brandy, not just cognac, does a good job of making the distinction between cognac specifically and other varieties of brandy; cognac-specific content is at the separate cognac article. It could very well be that the BINC misread something. Plus there's the fact that it's not our job to enforce trademarks, so their objections may be without merit in any fashion. oknazevad (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * oknazevad, but Sphilbrick's cn's are well justified. At minimum, the tagged sentences suffer from sloppy writing which conflates "brandy" and colloquial "cognac". It is not our job to enforce trademarks indeed, but we shouldn't defend sloppy and unsourced writing either. I'll try to address a few. No such user (talk) 07:40, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * True, but we also must realize that the idea that "cognac" is limited to the one geographic origin may not have existed at the time the events in those passages took place; we must be careful not to apply modern rules to eras before they were formed. BINC is very dedicated to maintaining the modern rules about origin, but the name "cognac" at one point in time was much like "cheddar" regarding a style of cheese, not necessarily one made at that English village. That's why the Turkish variety "kanyak" has a name that is clearly derived from "cognac" (I agree the "burn blood" bit can go; while the terms sound similar, from what I can tell, it's seems to be coincidence). So I'd say tread cautiously; we're not here to "correct" the historical record for BINC. oknazevad (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

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