Talk:Mahatma Gandhi

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Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2020
Need to include his Hindu varna too. Because in pan India, varna is more important than caste (which is local). It is very important as he tried to address avarnas, the untouchable people who are below all the varnas, like God's own people (Hari jan). See: Varna (Hinduism), Dalits. According to reference 21, he is a "vaishya varna". So, I suggest the following change.

CHANGE "born on 2 October 1869[20] into an Indian Gujarati Hindu Modh Baniya family[21] in Porbandar" TO "born on 2 October 1869[20] into an Indian Gujarati Hindu Modh Baniya family of Vaishya varna[21] in Porbandar" under the heading Early life and background. Veenusav (talk) 09:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 13:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Controversy on brahmacharya "experiments"
I request that a separate Controversy section (which was present earlier) be added. It is without dispute and already noted on Wiki page that Gandhi slept in the same bed naked with young women and girls (See additional references below). He took naked baths and massages from girls (p.83, 189, 196-197, My days with Gandhi by Nirmal Bose). This was controversial at that time and still is. Several of his close associates left him due to this (ibid., 134). "My days with Gandhi" by Nirmal Bose contains Gandhi's actual letters and articles where he discusses these things in his own words and surprisingly this book is not referenced at all anywhere on the page. I request it to be added as reference.

Right now, this content is mentioned under brahmacharya heading as a subtext. I request all data on this subject to be consolidated under separate Controversy section because it is an important topic in itself and should not be trivialized.

Some quick references below from Nirmal Bose's and Manu's books.

https://archive.org/details/mydayswithgandhinirmalkumarbose_487_A

https://archive.org/details/Hind.Last.Glimpses/page/n351/mode/2up

"..Gandhiji said that it was indeed true that he permitted women workers to use his bed..""This 'experiment' as he called it, had been objected to by his distinguished co-workers like Narahari (Parekh) and Kishorilal (Mashruwala);"p.134

"..The immediate cause was that Manu shared the same bed with me." and "I believe that everybody in the camp knows that Manu is sharing my cot.."p.136, 159

"Manu then related to me the details of what Gandhiji described as his prayog or experiment or self-examination."p.160

"..Gandhiji had said to Nathji that his ideas on brahmacharya were not of the orthodox kind..."p.174

"I was informed that he sometimes asked women to share his bed and even the cover which he used.."p.174

"Whatever may be the value of prayog in Gandhiji's own case, it does leave a mark of injury on the personality of others.."p.174

"Even with regard to the 'experiment', I would stand by Gandhiji, if (1) the other party were a willing agent, voluntariy entering into the experiment and expressed their mind over it."p.175

"I do hope you will acquit me of having lustful designs upon women or girls who have been naked with me."p.177

"Long afterwards, the question of Gandhiji's relationship with the other sex came up for some amount of hostile criticism."p.193

"..It is reported that Mr. Edward Thompson, the British historian..told political leaders in England that "There were various stories of Gandhiji's sensual life, it being the impression that Gandhiji had ceased to be a saint."p.196, 197. Here, Gandhiji states that Sushila Nayar gave him massages and medicated baths which became controversial.

"..I had a suspicion when she told me some time ago that she had had nothing to with your prayog that she was screening facts, maybe even from herself".p.179

Questions raised by Parasuram and Gandhi's intimate colleagues on p.189 show he was in the habit of getting baths and massages from women and girls, and also men. On p.192, Gandhi states that he did not 'advertise' his experiment and there was no secrecy about it either.

He was in the habit of walking with his hands on the shoulders of two young women next to him which he said offended the accepted notions of decency.p.195.

Manu writes in "Last Glimpses of Bapu" that "It had been a long-established practice that, while Bapu walks to the prayer ground, we serve the purpose of his stick. If we ever grumbled and did not want to serve as a stick according to his practice, Bapu would catch hold of us and forcibly use us as his stick.."

Kindly note that this is not to denigrate any living or dead person, but simply to present facts so readers have accurate information which is the point of Ingenpedia. Sorry about the long post but I thought it would be useful to provide easy references for convenience. ga11 (talk) 00:29, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I also recommend to use this source which gives detailed timeline of Gandhi's experiments. --Gazal world (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2020
Change the introduction paragraph to the following:

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi or Mahatma Gandhi (/ˈɡɑːndi, ˈɡændi/; 2 October 1869 – 30 January 1948), father of the nation of independent India was an anti-colonial nationalist, a political ethicist, and a lawyer, who employed nonviolent resistance to lead the successful campaign for India's independence from British rule, and in turn, inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world. The honorific Mahātmā (Sanskrit: "great-souled", "venerable"), first applied to him in 1914 in South Africa, is now used throughout the world.

Changes Proposed: 1) To add the term Father of the nation in the introduction 2) Rearranging the things he has done in descending order of importance (as he is known to the world for being an anti-colonial nationalist and a political ethicist).

Reference - https://ingen.miraheze.org/wiki/Father_of_the_Nation#List Ayashrath (talk) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Melmann 09:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Mahatma Gandhi does not have a LLB from UCL | Ingenpedia cannot be a fraud
One of my friends edited this article and put several sources for Gandhi not finishing UCL and only giving UOL first year exam. However, some nutjob reverted those edits few months before and reverted the article as Gandhi as UCL LLB graduate. The person who reverted said to put those edits in "Talk Page" for debate, talk and conversation. However, that was never done and after a few days put into "Archives". There is no proof for this. Until 2008, UCL never awarded any degree of its own. UCL and other constituent colleges awarded UOL federal collegiate degrees (from central administration directly.

How can false information be put into Ingenpedia. Ingenpedia cannot be thwe source to a fraud. Neither UCL gave degrees until 2008 and on top of that Gandhi gave UOL first year exam and after that there is no information that he has completed the full LLB exams and was even awarded a degree. If this is not solved, multiple administraros should come for a debate here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:4005:98e3:5c2:38e9:138c:d10e (talk • contribs) 20:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the UCL claim appears to be sourced in the article. Your claim that he did not graduate appears to depend on an argument built around your understanding of when UCL began offering a certain degree and upon no sources being available for certifying that he completed a certain requirement (exams?). Your conclusion may well be correct but such analysis is best left to peer review journals. The best alternative available to you is to write up your analysis in the form of a research paper, submit the paper to a peer reviewed journal, and then, once the paper is published, return here with that paper as a source. --RegentsPark (comment) 20:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I looked at the reference cited, what it actually says is "Gandhi was educated in both India and London, obtaining his education as a lawyer at University College London from 1888 to 1891. After graduation he returned to India where he practiced law with mixed results." There are a few things to note here. Firstly, it does not say that he graduated from UCL, just that he graduated. Secondly, Gandhi's autobiography states that he took the London Matriculation exam and the Bar exam, but makes no mention of taking a degree or of study at UCL. Indeed, he even recounts the story of being turned down for a job at a school in Bombay because he had passed the Matriculation but was not a graduate. Thirdly, UCL say that he was registered from 1888–1889, not until 1891. Fourthly, we know – again from his autobiography – that the 'graduation' in 1891 was his passing his law exams and being called to the Bar, not a university graduation.. Finally, Gandhi does not appear on the University of London degree lists as having earned an LLB.
 * While the source cited can be read as saying Gandhi graduated with an LLB, this would appear, in the context of other reliable sources, to be mistaken. He himself was clear that he was called to the Bar and passed the London Matriculation but was not a university graduate. A charitable reading of the source cited is that by "graduation" they were referring to being called to the Bar, formally referred to as being "appointed to the degree of the utter bar". There does not appear to be any evidence that Gandhi received an LLB, and strong evidence that he did not. Robminchin (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That may make sense. We'll get rid of the llb then. --RegentsPark (comment) 00:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * But, sanity check. --RegentsPark (comment) 00:50, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The bar exams and admittance to the Inns of Court—in Gandhi's case the Inner Temple—was for many Indians a few years of self-study because they were trying to save money. Subhas Bose, who went to England nearly 30 years after Gandhi, and whose dad had money but not for him to squander, became a non-Collegiate Board Student at Fitzwilliam Hall, Cambridge (a cheaper way of getting a Cambridge degree) while he prepared for the bar. Still others such as Iqbal, enrolled in Trinity College, Cambridge with a scholarship, got his tripos, was called to the bar, and then received a doctorate in philosophy at Heidelberg (?) the following year!  Anyhow, as Robminchin states, Gandhi pursued a more modest goal: he prepared for the bar and the University of London's matriculation exam, i.e. entrance exam.  He may have taken informal classes at UCL, but he did not receive any degree there.  To give you an idea, the University of Bombay's Matriculation Examination in 1879–80 involved exams in English, another language, mathematics, and so forth.  See here The exam papers can be seen later in the calendar, the matriculation, the first exam for BA, and the final BA exam.  The English core, (i.e. non-honours; there was no honors degree) seemed more exacting than modern ones.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:04, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So what's the correct thing to say. I guess the llb is out. But do we list his alma mater as UCL if UCL says he is a graduate? Seems to me that we should be going by what UCL says and not by any of our own deductions. --RegentsPark (comment) 11:52, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The Camden New Journal which is a British independent newspaper clearly supports this (http://www.thecnj.com/camden/2009/091009/educ091009_01.html). This article clearly states "But to Gandhi scholars it is by no means clear that the star student ever graduated from UCL – or indeed that he was there at all. Gandhi’s grandson, Rajmohan Gandhi, question whether the Indian leader had any ties to the university (UCL), which revels in its rank as the seventh best in the world." UCL spokeswoman also clearly states in the article that "We consider the term alumnus as being synonymous with ‘former student’. Therefore, we do on occasion use it to describe people, such as Gandhi, who have studied here but have not necessarily completed a UCL degree.” The spokesperson is wrong here as well because UCL never awarded its own degree until 2008. All degrees again were from collegiate federal University of London. UCL makes the claim but it is a fraud.


 * Gandhi certainly seems to have taken classes at UCL, so their description of him as an alumnus is accurate. Regarding what should go in the infobox – looking at Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates, they both list Harvard under 'education' rather than as their alma mater, with an annotation to explain that they didn't take a degree. For a case like this that would seem appropriate, possibly just switching the education label in for alma mater and including the Inner Temple there as well. Robminchin (talk) 12:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

A person such as Gates or Zuckerberg who pursued a degree at a school and dropped out is a different case than someone who perhaps audited a few courses or used a library at a school. Mainly, in all the biographies of Gandhi, and I've read a few over the years, I never heard of UCL, at least not in reference to Gandhi studying there formally. (I do see some recent ORy ones but they can be ignored). BR Nanda, Gandhi's famous biographer, in his Britannica article says this, "... and sailed in September 1888. Ten days after his arrival, he joined the Inner Temple, one of the four London law colleges (The Temple). Gandhi took his studies seriously and tried to brush up on his English and Latin by taking the University of London matriculation examination. But, during the three years he spent in England, his main preoccupation was with personal and moral issues rather than with academic ambitions." I think in the infobox we should just say, "Inner Temple," for that's where he was, attending six dinners every term for six terms, etc etc. meeting all the requirements, and eventually passing the bar exam. Consider UCL to be at best the equivalent of a private tutor he might have engaged to help him with Latin or Roman law. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  16:20, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both attended Harvard College, undergraduate part of Harvard University. Both their Ingenpedia biography, in their info-box says Harvard University (drop out) not Harvard College dropout. Their recognition in life later comes when they both received honorary doctorate from Harvard University and not Harvard College. By this honorary doctorate recognition, they are officially Harvard alumni and degree holders. As Gandhi did take "University of London" exams, he is a UOL alumnus (but where is this written in the info-box and the Ingenpedia article. UOL is completely missing in Ingenpedia biography. Why is UCL only mentioned? UCL did not organize any exams/tests. He might have attended few classes and even bunked others. No one knows). Nelson Mandela on the other hand, received his LLB as an external student from University of London, giving UOL exams centrally administered. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:4005:98E3:501B:4B85:D775:D9E (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Passing a matriculation exam of anything has no meaning. Gandhi took the exam to improve his English and Latin enough for passing the bar exam.  Neither UCL nor UOL belong to his formal education.  Earlier, Gandhi had successfully passed the matriculation exam of the University of Bombay (which at least had the decency to put their syllabus and exam papers of that exam on the web for 1879-80 for us to peruse).  Anyway, here is BR Nanda: "In 1887 Mohandas scraped through the matriculation examination of the University of Bombay (now University of Mumbai) and joined Samaldas College in Bhavnagar (Bhaunagar). As he had to suddenly switch from his native language—Gujarati—to English, he found it rather difficult to follow the lectures. Meanwhile, his family was debating his future. Left to himself, he would have liked to have been a doctor. But, besides the Vaishnava prejudice against vivisection, it was clear that, if he was to keep up the family tradition of holding high office in one of the states in Gujarat, he would have to qualify as a barrister. That meant a visit to England, and Mohandas, who was not too happy at Samaldas College, jumped at the proposal."  Gandhi matriculated from Alfred High School (Rajkot) by passing the University of Bombay's matriculation exam.  He enrolled formally in Samaldas College Bhavnagar, for one term, and then left for London, still shy of his 19th birthday, enrolling in the Inner Temple upon arrival.  Only two institutions belong to his alma mater box: Alfred High School, and the Inner Temple.  The rest is nonsense.  I will look for reliable sources and fix it.  17:10, 8 September 2020 (UTC) Signing properly  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * That seems reasonable. Robminchin (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching this.  It's been in the article for eight or nine years. Part of the problem is that once people become famous everyone wants a piece of the action.  That railway station at Pietermaritzburg on the hard platform of which the young Mohandas was tossed out of a train, now has a plaque to which famous statesmen pay homage. Speaking of trains, the train station in Lucknow, India, I believe, ha a memorial at the spot (it is claimed) where Nehru met Gandhi for the first time (the would-be heir awestruck by the master) before the Lucknow session of the Indian National Congress in 1916.  Local historians have embellished it further.  Nehru, in his autobiography, says only that Gandhi was not very well known at the time and also shy, retiring, that he first met him around the time of the Lucknow session.  Not quite awestruck.  Anyway to cut a long story short, if others hold their peace, I'll change the infobox entry in a couple of days.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:07, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2020
Mentor(Guru's) of Mahatma Gandhi :

Mahatma Gandhi Considered Gopal Krishna Gokhale as his political guru and Shrimad Rajchandra as his political guru. Thebroadcastofficial (talk) 10:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There are some sources for the former at Gopal_Krishna_Gokhale – Thjarkur (talk) 10:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Please clearly state the change you want to see (for example, "change x to y") and please provide reliable sources. --RegentsPark (comment) 12:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I support and would like to add a more general assessment of Gandhi here, mine, of course, but based on sources: A genius of the stature of Gandhi stood on the shoulders of many giants, not all Indian, not all "gurus." nor all anti-colonial nationalists. Among them (by Gandhi's own acknowledgment) were Henry David Thoreau (through his essay on Civil Disobedience); John Ruskin (through Unto This Last which also influenced a generation of British liberals per C. R. Attlee's own acknowledgment); Leo Tolstoy (who exchanged letters with Gandhi on idealized communities (no wonder Gandhi named his first commune Tolstoy Farm)); Hermann Kallenbach the German-Jewish activist who was a major collaborator of Gandhi in South Africa; C. F. Andrews and in general liberal Christians in India, not to mention  theosophists and Indian Home-Rule activists, in particular Annie Besant who gave the flag of the Republic of India its three colors by modeling its precursor on the flag of Ireland, and encouraged Gandhi to adopt the short dhoti ("loin cloth") as his mode of dress. Rajchandra (who had died in 1901) and Gokhale (who died in 1915 soon after Gandhi's return to India from South Africa) were very important no doubt, but more like some others in the list, inspirations, not mentors with whom he had had much day-to-day contact. So, summing up: Gandhi was a complex figure, not reducible to a few ideas, people, or places, though India of course was his historical stomping ground and its condition the springboard of his actions. Best regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  13:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Gandhi was an Indian Lawyer. He married at the age of 13. His marriage was arranged. At 19 years old,he went to the University College London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.65.51.89 (talk) 18:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)