Talk:Ombudsman

Probably not originated from Swedish, older written reference from Old Norwegian/Icelandic
Ombudsman from (umboðsmaðr, from umboð and maðr). The word was used in "Saga Hákonar Hákonarsonar" of Sturla Þórðarson ca.1260. The word also is to be found in the law book Jónsbók from 1281 and in í Gissurarsáttmáli which was put in law in 1262. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.180.131 (talk) 06:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The modern usage was popularized by Sweden, the word itself with a different definition originates from Old Nordic, with the oldest known references in Danish law and apparently almost as old in Icelandic Law. Please treat the concept and the word differently when talking origin. Carewolf (talk) 15:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Need Info
Is there any information around on the general amount of wages an Ombudsperson gets? It's information that would come in handy for me, and anybody who has a good guestimate should add it to this. 192.160.64.49 02:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm an Australian Ombudsman officer (the term Ombudsperson is not technically correct) and I could give you some info about this at the Federal level - but this wouldn't necessarily apply to other offices. wiki@rowland.id.au 203.20.130.18 04:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Alternative Translations
There seem to exist some other English translations for the Swedish ombudsmen than the ones provided on this page. The following are the translations given on the English versions of the official sites of the respective ombudsmen offices:


 * HomO, Ombudsman against Discrimination on grounds of Sexual Orientation
 * JämO, Equal Opportunities Ombudsman
 * Barnombudsmannen, Children's Ombudsman

(Handikappombudsmannen, The Disability Ombudsman, and DO, The Ombudsman against ethnic discrimination, on the other hand, are the same as those given here.) Maybe we want to change those here? Or not? Maybe there are several versions out there, and no official agreement on them, I don't know. Anyway, I've used the terms "Ombudsman against Discrimination on grounds of Sexual Orientation" and "Equal Opportunities Ombudsman" in my new HomO article and on the Homo disambiguation page, but I'll be quite happy to change that if somebody wants me to (Mic?). Bishonen 13:18, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Norway
What about Norwegian ombudsmenn? I don't really know anything about them, but it would be great if someone could add a section on ombudsmenn in Norway. historically it is not a Swedish word, the Norwegians had the use of this position and word earlier than the swedes. I am sorry to say that i cant prove this now, but i will come back to it. i will find the word in snorre's sagas from norway. and post it later. the word and position of ombudsman is of norwegian and not swedish origin

Re:Talk about contradiction, first of all you source a old norse saga not an Norwegian one, second ombudsman is a Swedish word, ombudsmenn is norwegian but the Swedish version, ombudsman is used in English. Hence theres nothing to discuss is there? - Oskar

What you're saying is silly. Ombudsmenn is simply the plural form of ombudsmann. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.96.196 (talk) 19:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Sweden
The Swedish section begins: "In 1713 King Charles XII of Sweden, preoccupied with fighting the Great Northern War, was residing in Bendery and had not set foot in Sweden in over a"

WTF? --Jumbo 06:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Ombuds
I overwrote a real rdr over the soft rdr (or the first halting attempt at inventing Dabs) named Ombuds, and saved this text:
 * For more on Ombuds, see Ombudsman, or Organizational ombudsman. Related also to Alternative dispute resolution, Mediation and Negotiation.

I'd bet its author would have used a rdr if they'd known how, and that all that content is duplicated here, but i haven't checked. Whoever does check should note their opinion so others don't repeat their effort. --Jerzy•t 03:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

UK Ombudsman - Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman
Would it be sensible to extract the extensive sections on the workings of the UK Ombudsman into a new article headed Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration? This would tidy this article and enable more effective searches for PCA etc. --leaky_caldron 20:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done; see Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. Ombudsman 21:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Didn't expect such a quick response. Do you agree that the list still in the original article should be either moved or copied to the new page?--leaky_caldron 21:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not sure at all what to do with the list, as the other ombuds offices don't exactly seem to fall under the auspices of the Parliamentary Ombudsman. Perhaps a list article will be necessary sooner or later, after articles for the many UK ombuds offices, such as one for the Local Government Ombudsman, are started.  Speaking of which, an article on the Local Government Ombudsman Watch group needs to be started, too.  Ombudsman 23:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you guys sure moved fast. I only typed all the addenda to the UK ombudsman shortly before christmas. --Will.S 13:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

speedy deletion.
The user 24.65.55.93 who put this up for deletion has only been making edits that change the words "man" and "men" to "person" and "people," respectively. I think this is a bad-faith deletion. - Zepheus 00:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Muslim concept?
I doubt the ombudsman originaly was a muslim concept if it was a muslim concept then there should be proper sources to prove so, otherwise this is just another example of nationalistic POV.

''A prototype of modern ombudsmen flourished in China during Qin Dynasty (221 BC), and in Korea during the Choseon Dynasty.[citation needed] The Romans also grappled with the problem, but it was the example of the second Muslim Caliph, Umar (634-644) and the concept of Qadi al-Qadat (developed in the Muslim world), which influenced the Swedish King, Charles XII. In 1713, fresh from self-exile in Turkey, Charles XII created the Office of Supreme Ombudsman, which soon became the Chancellor of Justice. A parallel institution, the Parliamentary Ombudsman, was later established by the Riksdag, and it was this that the Scandinavian countries subsequently moulded into its contemporary form.''


 * Yeah, there might be muslim parallells, but this needs sources. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

'He' vs 'they' in second paragraph
User:Ironman1104 has repeatedly changed 'they' to 'he' in the second paragraph of this article (see today's diffs for an example). I feel that this goes against the intent of the manual of style, and introduces the misleading suggestion that ombudsmen are required or expected to be male. I've reverted this change repeatedly, and I've raised it on Ironman1104's user talk page, but I've been ignored and accused of being illiterate. I'd like to sound out other editors to find out if there's a consensus for or against Ironman1104's change, or whether there should be more extensive rewriting to remove the problem. I'm aware that singular they is not necessarily the best style, but introducing a gender-biased POV seems less desirable. Anyone got any thoughts? AlexTiefling (talk) 13:07, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, the term's ending in "man" does make the "generic" he seem appropriate; nonetheless, an ombudsman can be either male or female, so an unambiguous term is desirable. I agree wholeheartedly with the use of the singular they; as per Steven Pinker, it's not ungrammatical. However, arguing with people whose only knowledge of grammar harks back to grade school is usually a waste of time, so can we just go with "he or she"? Ricardiana (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just seen a way to remove the pronoun altogether, and boldly implemented it. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of tribunes is excessive
The first paragraph in Ombudsman has this passage on ancient Roman government:


 * (The term refers to the ancient Roman 'tribunes of the plebians' (tribuni plebis), whose role was to intercede in the political process on behalf of common citizens). This comparison is however not appropriate since a tribuni plebis was one of the magistracies, a step higher than Quaestor, in the Roman cursus honorum or the way to honour that required, from Patrician families a Senatorial entry at a certain age, and culminating with the Consular dignity (becoming a consul) in suo anno (or in his own year, that is, to be consul at 35 and not a year earlier or a year later which was held to be deprivation of either a junior or a senior of his appropriate status at the appropriate age). Being a tribune of the plebs required coming from non patrician or plebeian families in the appropriate Tribe of Rome. One could also become a tribune of the plebs from the Ordo Equester, or the Knights (rich plebeians having the capacity to maintain a certain number of horses). Being a tribune of the plebs also carried with it judicial functions and the legislative power to veto a senatus consultatum accompanied with immunity from prosecution and violence, were held to make him part of the ruling/administrative class since tribuni plebis was also an electoral post and not an executive appointment. Therefore a tribuni plebis would not be an equivalent of an Ombudsman. The more correct parallel would be the institution of Censor, who looked into public morals, the proper maintenance of senatorial and knightly rolls and who combined the functions of Public Conscience and Keeper of the Maos Maiorum, the ancient traditions of Rome, against which the acts of every ruler, every consul, every would be Dictator or General were weighed. Interestingly, Cato, descendant of Cato the Censor, invoked the same privileges to criticize Gaius Julius Caesar.

This part needs to be significantly shortened. Given that the institution of ombudsman is only tangentially related to the tribunes this goes into a level of detail only interesting to students of Roman law and does not need to be included here.

I would prefer if someone with more knowledge of the topic would summarize this paragraph into something more readable and appropriate to the topic. JanSöderback (talk) 11:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of tribunes is inaccurate
This section is inaccurate - it was required that a tribune of the plebs not be of senatorial class, but it was required that in order to become a quaestor, praetor, consul etc that one be of senatorial class. Accordingly, it is not an office on the cursus honorum, as the section states. The author confuses the office of the tribune of the plebs with the office of the military tribune, which, though not a formal step on the cursus honorum, was nonetheless an office held by many who went on to become consul. See the wikipedia article "Cursus honorum". 130.216.157.134 (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

David Some dictionary's would say its a person appointed by parliment to investigate the public's complaints against a government - another would be financial. Your writing that the term ombudsman is part of a company is very broad stroked. After all the countries in that have that mind are run by companies it would seem foolish to make such a wiki.

A person who knows the people and knows the gov - ombudsman

please fix your page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.178.15 (talk) 06:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh section deleted
For being sloppy (in terms of English grammar, even) propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.54.175.37 (talk) 17:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of ombud
I am by no means a linguist, but at least in Danish ombud makes perfect sense, but does not mean proxy or representative, at least not in directly.

Om- is a common prefix which means circum-, that is; an alternative way or route, going around something, doing something again but differently.

bud means a received message or a messenger

Ombud therefore can mean two things: a) A message received by an alternative route b) A messenger whose sole job would be to redeliver messages differently from how they were first delivered.

With the additional postfix -man in ombudsman, the first word can not be a job description, which leaves one definition for ombud: A message by an alternative route. So a proxied message, but not a proxy in itself. Carewolf (talk) 15:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You clearly are not a linguist, because bud also means command (10 bud = 10 Commandments), and bud as messenger is short for budbringer (the one who brings the command). Also a ombud(e.g. borgerligt ombud) is a public job that it's your duty as a citicen to do. Ombud here and in the original norse sense means civil service which is the source of the modern word embedsman (civil servant). So om-bud means alternate command, as in the king is busy and send a representative, to rule in his place over your dispute.94.145.236.194 (talk) 09:29, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Bud according to my dictionary in means message or intelligence (efterretning) especially in historic context at bringe bud, at modtage bud, budbringer and bud as a command is a short for påbud. Not that it is terrible important, but correcting me with incorrect information is slightly odd. Carewolf (talk) 10:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I disn't give any incorrect informations. Your dictionary are just up to date, so it don't keep record of all former use of a word. I am pleased thou to se that your dictionary agrees with me in that bud as messenger is short for budbringer. If you look af [| the danish national encyclopedia] (which have been writen by IRL historians and not someone like you that in your own words are a notproffesionel in the field), you would find that i'm correct when i state that ombud has evolved into embed, and that it has nothing to do with alternate routing, but with some one acting on the behalf(commanding in the name) of the king.94.145.236.194 (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Swedish: Bud might be the person but also a message. But "ombud" is always a person. Ingrid Eckerman (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Should the list be moved to a separate article?
Section 4 is very, very long and provides little to the discussion of the generalsubject of the article. The information it contains has legitimate encyclopedic value (though some of the countries which just mention the names of one or two organizations are iffy), but it'd be probably better if kept separate from the main article. 201.190.31.85 (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Removal of all country or state based Ombudsmans
I think that the removal of all all country or state based Ombudsmans in this edit did not improve the article. The edit summary was "This article should be about the general concept of an ombudsman. It shouldn't describe the specific ombudsmen of the govts of each of the 200 countries of the world." What do you think about this? --Shirt58 (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, so I reverted that edit. Vanjagenije (talk)  13:30, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Article is written as if Ombudsman is public advocate primarily, misses neutrality role
The International Ombudsman Association's code of ethics and standards of practice emphasize independence and neutrality. Much of this article is instead written as if the primary purpose of an Ombudsman is to side with the public or with employees or other stakeholders in opposition to core leadership. It's going to take an extensive rewrite to fix this, I think, and I'm not sure I'm the best person to do it. Tagging POV for now.

The irony of placing a POV tag on an 'Ombudsman' article does not escape me. ;-)

For an example of a more neutral article on the subject, see Organizational Ombudsman.

Stevegt (talk) 20:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)